1 00:00:22,990 --> 00:00:09,089 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:30,729 --> 00:00:25,790 hello and welcome to the skeptic zone 3 00:00:34,310 --> 00:00:30,739 episode number 232 for the 30th of March 4 00:00:38,569 --> 00:00:34,320 2013 Richard Saunders here with you 5 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:38,579 coming live from circular key in Sydney 6 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:41,489 Australia this is the big ferry port in 7 00:00:45,229 --> 00:00:43,530 Sydney over to my right I see the 8 00:00:47,149 --> 00:00:45,239 beautiful Sydney Opera House to my left 9 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:47,159 it's the Sydney Harbour Bridge there's a 10 00:00:52,820 --> 00:00:50,850 a giant cruise ship doctor just up there 11 00:00:54,829 --> 00:00:52,830 on my left there are fairies everywhere 12 00:00:58,249 --> 00:00:54,839 moving in and out the water is just 13 00:00:59,960 --> 00:00:58,259 glistening on this beautiful day lots of 14 00:01:02,450 --> 00:00:59,970 people here thousands of people milling 15 00:01:05,119 --> 00:01:02,460 around and there's a busker over there 16 00:01:06,710 --> 00:01:05,129 playing I guess I'm just getting my 17 00:01:11,210 --> 00:01:06,720 little dose of Sydney before i head 18 00:01:13,460 --> 00:01:11,220 overseas in a couple of days but coming 19 00:01:15,289 --> 00:01:13,470 up on this week's show a little bit of a 20 00:01:16,819 --> 00:01:15,299 short show simply because i'm so busy at 21 00:01:18,830 --> 00:01:16,829 the moment preparing for my trip and 22 00:01:20,569 --> 00:01:18,840 doing all sorts of other things will 23 00:01:23,030 --> 00:01:20,579 kick off with a week in science without 24 00:01:25,790 --> 00:01:23,040 good friend dr. Paul Willis from RI aus 25 00:01:28,580 --> 00:01:25,800 org dot au the Royal Institution in 26 00:01:31,250 --> 00:01:28,590 Adelaide and following a week in science 27 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:31,260 it's a sort of a mini think tank dr. 28 00:01:35,980 --> 00:01:33,570 Rachel and myself having a talk about 29 00:01:40,490 --> 00:01:35,990 some of the issues of the day concerning 30 00:01:42,140 --> 00:01:40,500 the latest yes the latest court goings 31 00:01:45,020 --> 00:01:42,150 on with the Australian vaccination 32 00:01:46,899 --> 00:01:45,030 network oh boy Whateley hear about some 33 00:01:49,190 --> 00:01:46,909 of the things that are happening now 34 00:01:53,140 --> 00:01:49,200 what a beautiful place this is there a 35 00:01:56,990 --> 00:01:53,150 fairy's going off to Manly Beach off to 36 00:01:58,940 --> 00:01:57,000 turanga Park Zoo wonderful zoo here in 37 00:02:01,820 --> 00:01:58,950 Sydney you can get a ferry right under 38 00:02:04,219 --> 00:02:01,830 the Sydney Harbour Bridge past luna park 39 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:04,229 I sound like a tourist information board 40 00:02:07,810 --> 00:02:05,570 donut 41 00:02:09,969 --> 00:02:07,820 sometimes Sydney really turns it on and 42 00:02:13,030 --> 00:02:09,979 we've had a very long hot and humid some 43 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:13,040 of it today it's pretty nice oh now also 44 00:02:16,180 --> 00:02:14,510 coming up later in the show a bit more 45 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:16,190 information about where I'll be 46 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:19,010 appearing around the world in the next 47 00:02:24,070 --> 00:02:20,810 few weeks and I certainly hope to meet 48 00:02:26,949 --> 00:02:24,080 you in in Dublin or in Oslo we're in 49 00:02:28,750 --> 00:02:26,959 Manchester good heavens or in the Czech 50 00:02:31,270 --> 00:02:28,760 Republic but for now I'm just going to 51 00:02:33,010 --> 00:02:31,280 oh I might go for an ice cream why not 52 00:02:35,770 --> 00:02:33,020 it's a beautiful day for an ice cream 53 00:02:42,390 --> 00:02:35,780 I'm doing that I'll let you enjoy the 54 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:51,230 me 55 00:03:01,050 --> 00:02:57,490 iOS this week children's TV and the 56 00:03:09,780 --> 00:03:01,060 minds of kids dinosaur sex and painted 57 00:03:11,670 --> 00:03:09,790 electronics first up in good news for 58 00:03:13,620 --> 00:03:11,680 many parents the risk of your child 59 00:03:17,220 --> 00:03:13,630 becoming antisocial is largely 60 00:03:19,110 --> 00:03:17,230 unaffected by TV time a UK study has 61 00:03:21,330 --> 00:03:19,120 confirmed that five year olds who watch 62 00:03:23,820 --> 00:03:21,340 three or more hours of television per 63 00:03:26,790 --> 00:03:23,830 day only marginally increased their risk 64 00:03:28,770 --> 00:03:26,800 of developing behavioral problems they 65 00:03:30,810 --> 00:03:28,780 also found no tangible link between 66 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:30,820 playing video games and a child's 67 00:03:35,580 --> 00:03:33,010 sociality it's still worth staying 68 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:35,590 vigilant however as excessive screen 69 00:03:40,260 --> 00:03:37,930 time may contribute to other problems 70 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:40,270 like sedentary behavior sleeping 71 00:03:47,699 --> 00:03:42,370 difficulties and impaired language 72 00:03:49,740 --> 00:03:47,709 development Samoa Vanuatu and Fiji used 73 00:03:53,449 --> 00:03:49,750 to be home to a plethora of flightless 74 00:03:55,830 --> 00:03:53,459 birds and then Along Came humans 75 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:55,840 colonisation of remote Pacific Islands 76 00:04:00,840 --> 00:03:57,850 may have led to the mass extinction of 77 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:00,850 over 1,000 species of large bodied 78 00:04:04,890 --> 00:04:03,370 flightless birds this is one of the 79 00:04:06,449 --> 00:04:04,900 largest known extinction events 80 00:04:08,820 --> 00:04:06,459 occurring between three and a half 81 00:04:11,370 --> 00:04:08,830 thousand and seven hundred years ago 82 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:11,380 researchers use computer modeling to 83 00:04:16,470 --> 00:04:13,930 fill gaps in the fossil record revealing 84 00:04:22,090 --> 00:04:16,480 that over hunting and deforestation by 85 00:04:26,629 --> 00:04:24,590 genetic factors may contribute to a 86 00:04:29,570 --> 00:04:26,639 smoker developing a heavy habit and 87 00:04:31,879 --> 00:04:29,580 nicotine dependence traffic pollution in 88 00:04:33,980 --> 00:04:31,889 European cities is responsible for 89 00:04:36,409 --> 00:04:33,990 around fourteen percent of cases of 90 00:04:38,710 --> 00:04:36,419 chronic childhood asthma fossilization 91 00:04:40,970 --> 00:04:38,720 may affect the Milano somes which 92 00:04:43,310 --> 00:04:40,980 paleontologists used to determine animal 93 00:04:45,500 --> 00:04:43,320 color meaning dinosaurs may have been a 94 00:04:47,629 --> 00:04:45,510 different color to what we think and a 95 00:04:49,159 --> 00:04:47,639 new theory suggests that some dinosaurs 96 00:04:51,950 --> 00:04:49,169 may have had sex in the missionary 97 00:04:54,409 --> 00:04:51,960 position otherwise spikes on their backs 98 00:04:59,570 --> 00:04:54,419 and Tails could have wreak havoc on the 99 00:05:02,050 --> 00:04:59,580 male members finally this week painted 100 00:05:04,070 --> 00:05:02,060 electronics may soon be a reality 101 00:05:06,140 --> 00:05:04,080 researchers from the University of 102 00:05:08,420 --> 00:05:06,150 Michigan have developed a way to paint a 103 00:05:11,450 --> 00:05:08,430 plastic-like surface which conducts 104 00:05:13,159 --> 00:05:11,460 electric signals the problem previously 105 00:05:16,190 --> 00:05:13,169 has been that the molecules in these 106 00:05:17,780 --> 00:05:16,200 surfaces were randomly arranged making 107 00:05:19,730 --> 00:05:17,790 transmission of electric signals 108 00:05:21,710 --> 00:05:19,740 unpredictable this research has 109 00:05:24,110 --> 00:05:21,720 developed a way that the polymer can be 110 00:05:26,719 --> 00:05:24,120 painted with the signal transferring 111 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:26,729 molecules lining up allowing easier 112 00:05:34,490 --> 00:05:31,650 transmission robert Llewellyn also known 113 00:05:37,340 --> 00:05:34,500 as Crichton from Red Dwarf recently 114 00:05:40,010 --> 00:05:37,350 joined our aisles to test-drive trev the 115 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:40,020 electric car you can see robert talking 116 00:05:44,390 --> 00:05:41,910 with the builder of trev and driving 117 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:44,400 this ingenious vehicle on our YouTube 118 00:05:48,620 --> 00:05:46,890 and Vimeo channels that's been the 119 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:48,630 highlights of another big week in 120 00:05:52,580 --> 00:05:50,370 science you can find out more about 121 00:05:56,630 --> 00:05:52,590 these and other science news stories on 122 00:06:00,080 --> 00:05:56,640 our website ro-org a you where you can 123 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:00,090 also sign up for future episodes you can 124 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:02,370 follow the conversation on twitter using 125 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:05,490 the hashtag weekend sigh i'm paul willis 126 00:06:18,390 --> 00:06:07,890 and on behalf of the r isles team i'll 127 00:06:24,900 --> 00:06:23,550 I am on it oh yeah Chris 10 Aviva tips 128 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:24,910 addai some lush glitter of a skeptic 129 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:27,370 zone I'm skeptical in la liga the VINs 130 00:06:31,230 --> 00:06:29,530 not a blog gear up a BF a podcast of 131 00:06:33,510 --> 00:06:31,240 reading and skip system is leaked on 132 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:33,520 this door panel since i'll skip sister 133 00:06:37,529 --> 00:06:35,410 demo or hydro besides the dips corner 134 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:37,539 Chiclets and calendar / activated or 135 00:06:40,469 --> 00:06:39,130 line getting estate association escapes 136 00:06:42,210 --> 00:06:40,479 his blog in opportunity I'm layer or the 137 00:06:44,129 --> 00:06:42,220 biscuit Harris hefty performance so stay 138 00:06:54,390 --> 00:06:44,139 kingdom of their Tulsa escapes his 139 00:07:05,310 --> 00:06:54,400 thoughts hello join us now for drinking 140 00:07:06,870 --> 00:07:05,320 skeptically in the think tank no dr. 141 00:07:09,270 --> 00:07:06,880 richard i think it was it wasn't in a 142 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:09,280 bus but i was unable to identify which 143 00:07:15,050 --> 00:07:12,010 exact thing on our folks welcome to 144 00:07:18,629 --> 00:07:15,060 think tank by the way dr. cheers hmm 145 00:07:20,430 --> 00:07:18,639 it's some rather unusual well it's it's 146 00:07:21,839 --> 00:07:20,440 we're not in the same in the normal 147 00:07:23,820 --> 00:07:21,849 location so it's a mini thing to 148 00:07:25,890 --> 00:07:23,830 anything time and i'm actually in dr e 149 00:07:28,950 --> 00:07:25,900 cheese front room and the planes are 150 00:07:31,020 --> 00:07:28,960 being buzzing her tonight yeah because 151 00:07:33,330 --> 00:07:31,030 it's very humid in Sydney tonight and 152 00:07:35,610 --> 00:07:33,340 it's raining and they sort of tend to be 153 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:35,620 doing they're coming out of the runway 154 00:07:39,540 --> 00:07:38,050 and then sort of doing hard right hand 155 00:07:41,189 --> 00:07:39,550 turns and the heading over there goes 156 00:07:42,990 --> 00:07:41,199 one now but listeners may be very lucky 157 00:07:46,350 --> 00:07:43,000 they may hear one going over your roof 158 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:46,360 any minute so they probably will but dr. 159 00:07:50,850 --> 00:07:49,210 AG thank you for posting this little 160 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:50,860 meaning think tank in your throne what 161 00:07:53,490 --> 00:07:52,330 if I normally would go down in the club 162 00:07:55,170 --> 00:07:53,500 at the end of the street but it was only 163 00:07:56,430 --> 00:07:55,180 everyone else was sort of indisposed 164 00:07:59,100 --> 00:07:56,440 it's coming up to Eastern all the 165 00:08:00,390 --> 00:07:59,110 residents it is we're having a look my 166 00:08:02,490 --> 00:08:00,400 microphone that was my microphone 167 00:08:04,290 --> 00:08:02,500 rattling folks a quick think tank 168 00:08:08,990 --> 00:08:04,300 tonight and before we get stuck into 169 00:08:11,310 --> 00:08:09,000 talking about the latest forum I 170 00:08:13,379 --> 00:08:11,320 slapping hilarity with the Australian 171 00:08:15,029 --> 00:08:13,389 vaccination net well let's quickly 172 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:15,039 mention that of course you and I will be 173 00:08:19,230 --> 00:08:17,650 both appearing at QED in Manchester how 174 00:08:21,029 --> 00:08:19,240 exciting is that I know you Richard 175 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:21,039 Anderson even more exciting because you 176 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:23,770 originally when I was asked to go you 177 00:08:27,180 --> 00:08:25,090 weren't planning on going and now you 178 00:08:27,990 --> 00:08:27,190 are going so we get to hang out in 179 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:28,000 Manchester 180 00:08:33,149 --> 00:08:31,510 and I'm doing a talk on actually as it 181 00:08:35,790 --> 00:08:33,159 happens the anti-vaccine movement in 182 00:08:39,930 --> 00:08:35,800 Australia and I think you aren't some 183 00:08:41,909 --> 00:08:39,940 panels yeah you don't say yeah I told 184 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:41,919 them you are doing anything they would 185 00:08:45,930 --> 00:08:43,450 like me to do I'm having to talk or 186 00:08:47,970 --> 00:08:45,940 whatever and I'm happy to give you a 187 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:47,980 hand and help illustrate any points in 188 00:08:53,820 --> 00:08:50,530 your toe there goes one now don't know 189 00:08:56,430 --> 00:08:53,830 what it was but thanks so QED Manchester 190 00:08:58,710 --> 00:08:56,440 coming up I'm so excited about that now 191 00:09:00,870 --> 00:08:58,720 I must say and as my listeners know I've 192 00:09:02,820 --> 00:09:00,880 been invited to speak at a film festival 193 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:02,830 in the Czech Republic and the website is 194 00:09:08,250 --> 00:09:05,890 a fo dot c ZF certainly spoken a lot 195 00:09:09,900 --> 00:09:08,260 about it but what I haven't said and I 196 00:09:12,570 --> 00:09:09,910 really should have and I'm going to say 197 00:09:14,700 --> 00:09:12,580 it now is I wouldn't be going there I 198 00:09:17,310 --> 00:09:14,710 wouldn't be going to Manchester wouldn't 199 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:17,320 be going to Oslo I'm appearing on the 200 00:09:24,150 --> 00:09:21,370 sixth of februari in Oslo I think that's 201 00:09:27,390 --> 00:09:24,160 really a pro have another drink fifth 202 00:09:29,700 --> 00:09:27,400 third of my head fixed of April in Oslo 203 00:09:31,350 --> 00:09:29,710 the tenth of April in Dublin of 204 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:31,360 Manchester and the check up on none of 205 00:09:37,079 --> 00:09:33,490 this would happen if it weren't for 206 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:37,089 Brian Dunning Brian Dunning personally 207 00:09:41,010 --> 00:09:39,490 recommended me to the people in the 208 00:09:44,579 --> 00:09:41,020 Czech Republic who were sponsoring my 209 00:09:47,670 --> 00:09:44,589 trip really to fly to Europe and so I 210 00:09:50,220 --> 00:09:47,680 owe a huge debt to Brian Dunning for his 211 00:09:52,470 --> 00:09:50,230 very kind and warm recommendation that 212 00:09:54,329 --> 00:09:52,480 they should have me attend and talking 213 00:09:57,390 --> 00:09:54,339 and all the rest of it so he also has a 214 00:09:59,520 --> 00:09:57,400 very good hot tub Richard he does so 215 00:10:02,160 --> 00:09:59,530 Brian Dunning cheers Cheers to Brian 216 00:10:05,610 --> 00:10:02,170 humming mmm I'm Brian Dunning from skip 217 00:10:07,829 --> 00:10:05,620 toys John farm and also brian the Sharks 218 00:10:10,410 --> 00:10:07,839 say hello yes the shark say hello Brian 219 00:10:12,329 --> 00:10:10,420 say when you come to Australia next time 220 00:10:14,490 --> 00:10:12,339 Brian the sharks will be waiting for you 221 00:10:16,170 --> 00:10:14,500 now what a what a top bloke brian is 222 00:10:17,910 --> 00:10:16,180 what a wonderful man and of course 223 00:10:19,590 --> 00:10:17,920 sceptile is one of our favorite podcasts 224 00:10:22,290 --> 00:10:19,600 you put me on to skip to it originally 225 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:22,300 you know you did really years ago you 226 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:23,530 said hey Richard did there's this 227 00:10:26,670 --> 00:10:25,330 podcast called skipped I'd you should 228 00:10:28,329 --> 00:10:26,680 listen to and I hadn't listened to her 229 00:10:31,030 --> 00:10:28,339 before oh how about that 230 00:10:33,970 --> 00:10:31,040 didn't realize yeah but but all over the 231 00:10:36,790 --> 00:10:33,980 years i first met brian i think in 2008 232 00:10:38,199 --> 00:10:36,800 and we've just very good friends Brian 233 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:38,209 and I'm heard friends with his whole 234 00:10:43,809 --> 00:10:42,170 family there goes another one hmm i 235 00:10:45,699 --> 00:10:43,819 think the sounds bouncing off the clouds 236 00:10:47,590 --> 00:10:45,709 name yeah so i can't speak highly enough 237 00:10:50,319 --> 00:10:47,600 about brian dunning he's a top Logan and 238 00:10:52,299 --> 00:10:50,329 I love to sit to tease him and send him 239 00:10:54,119 --> 00:10:52,309 up and he'll write back to me teasing me 240 00:10:56,590 --> 00:10:54,129 and sending me up so it's all good yeah 241 00:11:00,069 --> 00:10:56,600 I somehow ended up with a book that 242 00:11:03,429 --> 00:11:00,079 somebody gave him at tam that ended up 243 00:11:06,220 --> 00:11:03,439 in my suitcase for why we fetch that 244 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:06,230 somebody had given to cry and what and 245 00:11:12,549 --> 00:11:09,170 he got very offended so he palmed it off 246 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:12,559 to me i don't know i think i dont know 247 00:11:17,170 --> 00:11:14,689 havent doesn't happen and i can't wait 248 00:11:19,420 --> 00:11:17,180 to see Brian Dunning again about 249 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:19,430 sometime later this year I'm I hope and 250 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:20,930 all those other wonderful things of 251 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:22,730 course my talks and Dublin talks and 252 00:11:26,170 --> 00:11:24,050 Manchester and talks in the Czech 253 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:26,180 Republic and also in Dublin is it my 254 00:11:31,239 --> 00:11:28,610 skeptics society oh yeah it's catching 255 00:11:34,419 --> 00:11:31,249 up on it is it's a skeptical type up in 256 00:11:35,860 --> 00:11:34,429 the pub time meeting now this listeners 257 00:11:37,660 --> 00:11:35,870 can go to facebook and look for the 258 00:11:39,189 --> 00:11:37,670 Dublin skeptics the Irish kept if you'll 259 00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:39,199 find out what's that's information i'll 260 00:11:44,079 --> 00:11:41,600 put in links in the show notes i'll put 261 00:11:46,119 --> 00:11:44,089 in links in the show notes now dr. AG is 262 00:11:50,410 --> 00:11:46,129 i was just saying to you just before we 263 00:11:52,269 --> 00:11:50,420 went on press the record button and this 264 00:11:53,829 --> 00:11:52,279 can lead into the subject of those wacky 265 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:53,839 people at the australian vaccination and 266 00:11:58,720 --> 00:11:57,290 work tonight this the news the TV news 267 00:12:03,460 --> 00:11:58,730 media were running a story about a new 268 00:12:05,079 --> 00:12:03,470 vaccination mmm r VV all right and it's 269 00:12:06,340 --> 00:12:05,089 generally a positive story you know this 270 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:06,350 is better for children better for 271 00:12:10,989 --> 00:12:07,970 everybody it's quicker it's all the rest 272 00:12:12,819 --> 00:12:10,999 of it but channel 7 journal servant who 273 00:12:14,019 --> 00:12:12,829 i do not have any affiliation with now 274 00:12:16,929 --> 00:12:14,029 because i'll see you can say whatever 275 00:12:18,790 --> 00:12:16,939 you like about i have to say this but i 276 00:12:20,410 --> 00:12:18,800 don't i don't have any formal agreement 277 00:12:24,309 --> 00:12:20,420 on channel 7 I think they've taught 278 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:24,319 people but nevertheless arm so they ran 279 00:12:29,260 --> 00:12:26,689 the story and then they said but some 280 00:12:32,050 --> 00:12:29,270 people disagree or was that affected 281 00:12:34,870 --> 00:12:32,060 bronwyn Hancock but her title that you 282 00:12:37,390 --> 00:12:34,880 know the title they put under her name 283 00:12:39,730 --> 00:12:37,400 was anti vaccination campaign or worse 284 00:12:41,740 --> 00:12:39,740 though I wonder what she'll think about 285 00:12:43,330 --> 00:12:41,750 that and she said all these things could 286 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:43,340 lead to brain damage I didn't hear it 287 00:12:46,150 --> 00:12:44,930 quite clearly enough because I was in 288 00:12:47,890 --> 00:12:46,160 the club and I couldn't quite hear it 289 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:47,900 but I was a little disappointed dr. 290 00:12:52,210 --> 00:12:50,170 aging yeah I mean the thing is 291 00:12:54,940 --> 00:12:52,220 Australian media do that stuff at their 292 00:12:57,340 --> 00:12:54,950 own peril these days because there was 293 00:12:59,160 --> 00:12:57,350 recently a story on Media Watch in this 294 00:13:03,750 --> 00:12:59,170 country Media Watch is a program that 295 00:13:07,150 --> 00:13:03,760 criticizes the media yeah it's run by 296 00:13:09,010 --> 00:13:07,160 our government television station and 297 00:13:11,260 --> 00:13:09,020 whenever they see something stupid in 298 00:13:12,970 --> 00:13:11,270 the media they will take it to pieces 299 00:13:14,650 --> 00:13:12,980 and then you know even against their own 300 00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:14,660 network which exactly yeah and then 301 00:13:19,870 --> 00:13:17,120 known for their acrid tone and then they 302 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:19,880 don't beat around the bush and they took 303 00:13:25,630 --> 00:13:22,730 they went to town on a station that runs 304 00:13:27,490 --> 00:13:25,640 on channel 9 he called wind news Fillion 305 00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:27,500 yes an affiliate of channel nine which 306 00:13:32,530 --> 00:13:30,110 runs in the Illawarra region because our 307 00:13:35,140 --> 00:13:32,540 months and months ago now they had 308 00:13:40,060 --> 00:13:35,150 merrill dory on as an alleged expert in 309 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:40,070 the spot of balance and they so a number 310 00:13:44,050 --> 00:13:41,690 of people wrote to them and complained 311 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:44,060 and the way complaints work in this 312 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:46,010 country is if you write the TV station 313 00:13:49,630 --> 00:13:47,690 and you are not satisfied with their 314 00:13:52,060 --> 00:13:49,640 response and they have to respond within 315 00:13:54,910 --> 00:13:52,070 30 days you can then complained the 316 00:13:58,960 --> 00:13:54,920 austrian consumer meteor authority right 317 00:14:01,780 --> 00:13:58,970 or the australian I don't know one of 318 00:14:03,970 --> 00:14:01,790 those acaba yeah economies a commercial 319 00:14:07,150 --> 00:14:03,980 anyway so akma is currently 320 00:14:09,940 --> 00:14:07,160 investigating the that channels that 321 00:14:11,460 --> 00:14:09,950 station for that breach because that was 322 00:14:13,450 --> 00:14:11,470 deemed to be not in the interest of 323 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:13,460 Public Health or something I don't know 324 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:16,130 what the classification was and on top 325 00:14:21,730 --> 00:14:18,170 of that they got taken to pieces on 326 00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:21,740 media watch so Australian media does 327 00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:23,030 that at their own peril because they 328 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:24,710 will simply get complaints and they will 329 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:26,090 have to respond to those complaints and 330 00:14:29,770 --> 00:14:27,890 if the people that make those complaints 331 00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:29,780 are not happy they'll get dogged into 332 00:14:35,410 --> 00:14:32,560 the regulator and then they can they can 333 00:14:36,670 --> 00:14:35,420 be subject to very big fines like we're 334 00:14:38,890 --> 00:14:36,680 talking hundreds of thousands of dollars 335 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:38,900 the interesting thing for me is when 336 00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:42,410 this story came up they didn't say 337 00:14:47,550 --> 00:14:45,230 vaccination commentator or anything like 338 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:47,560 that they were absolutely explicit 339 00:14:51,970 --> 00:14:50,569 anti-vaccination camp yeah yeah so they 340 00:14:54,730 --> 00:14:51,980 might be able to get out of it based on 341 00:14:57,309 --> 00:14:54,740 that um it's a pity they had a role she 342 00:14:59,679 --> 00:14:57,319 had nothing to know yeah I mean but this 343 00:15:02,259 --> 00:14:59,689 is the problem like why have 10 seconds 344 00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:02,269 of her saying that you know but i guess 345 00:15:05,319 --> 00:15:03,920 it was first of all there's a couple of 346 00:15:08,879 --> 00:15:05,329 things that are not so bad about that 347 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:08,889 even though it was there Bronwyn Hancock 348 00:15:13,869 --> 00:15:12,170 like when's Merrill Dory question how 349 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:13,879 come they got Bronwyn Hancock I mean 350 00:15:17,230 --> 00:15:15,410 Merrill during has stepped down as the 351 00:15:19,660 --> 00:15:17,240 president of the ABN but she still 352 00:15:21,340 --> 00:15:19,670 identifies as a spokesperson yeah which 353 00:15:22,990 --> 00:15:21,350 I presume means she goes on the telly 354 00:15:25,119 --> 00:15:23,000 box it's possible and they were looking 355 00:15:27,939 --> 00:15:25,129 for someone who would who would be happy 356 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:27,949 to be known as an anti-vaccination well 357 00:15:32,050 --> 00:15:29,930 it is possible and the thing is I was 358 00:15:33,939 --> 00:15:32,060 going to say that that you know there 359 00:15:38,379 --> 00:15:33,949 has been a direct dramatic shift in the 360 00:15:41,199 --> 00:15:38,389 way the Australian media now I guess 361 00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:41,209 labels these people it used to be you 362 00:15:46,179 --> 00:15:43,839 know they were put up as equal 363 00:15:48,730 --> 00:15:46,189 vaccination expert or commentator on 364 00:15:51,519 --> 00:15:48,740 well yeah exactly yeah Merrill was 365 00:15:54,939 --> 00:15:51,529 always called an expert but um I don't 366 00:15:57,069 --> 00:15:54,949 think Brom was coy about her agenda as 367 00:15:58,689 --> 00:15:57,079 the ov-10 are so she probably doesn't 368 00:16:01,509 --> 00:15:58,699 care that she was called an anti vax 369 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:01,519 yeah campaigner okay but that you know 370 00:16:07,090 --> 00:16:04,970 there was a day in 2009 when you would 371 00:16:09,009 --> 00:16:07,100 never have someone called an anti vector 372 00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:09,019 on this on the media in this country and 373 00:16:11,860 --> 00:16:10,399 I think this is one of the things I'm 374 00:16:15,069 --> 00:16:11,870 going to cover in a bit more detail at q 375 00:16:16,809 --> 00:16:15,079 ed.s that that apart from everything 376 00:16:20,319 --> 00:16:16,819 else that's happened with the avian with 377 00:16:22,420 --> 00:16:20,329 regards to complaints to government 378 00:16:24,550 --> 00:16:22,430 bodies and then being almost cut off at 379 00:16:26,170 --> 00:16:24,560 the knees because of all the things that 380 00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:26,180 they've breached that they now have to 381 00:16:31,660 --> 00:16:29,120 deal with that change in the media's 382 00:16:33,220 --> 00:16:31,670 attitude and educating the media as to 383 00:16:35,530 --> 00:16:33,230 what they're really about and shifting 384 00:16:38,949 --> 00:16:35,540 that false balance away from the 385 00:16:41,049 --> 00:16:38,959 anti-vaxxers has I think been a major 386 00:16:44,139 --> 00:16:41,059 victory for the grassroots campaign 387 00:16:47,740 --> 00:16:44,149 without country without question and now 388 00:16:50,259 --> 00:16:47,750 we can discuss the fact that as far as 389 00:16:51,610 --> 00:16:50,269 the Assyrian vaccination network concern 390 00:16:53,150 --> 00:16:51,620 I mean all their chickens are coming 391 00:16:55,919 --> 00:16:53,160 home 392 00:16:58,609 --> 00:16:55,929 maybe you can give our listeners a sort 393 00:17:01,910 --> 00:16:58,619 of an overview of this name change 394 00:17:04,590 --> 00:17:01,920 situation yes I back in August last year 395 00:17:07,260 --> 00:17:04,600 the Department of Fair Trading wrote to 396 00:17:08,579 --> 00:17:07,270 the avn and said that owing to several 397 00:17:10,669 --> 00:17:08,589 complaints they've received from 398 00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:10,679 different sections of the community 399 00:17:15,539 --> 00:17:13,510 including medical professionals but not 400 00:17:20,909 --> 00:17:15,549 exclusive of medical professionals they 401 00:17:22,620 --> 00:17:20,919 cite the public as well the avian this 402 00:17:24,809 --> 00:17:22,630 name was deemed to be misleading yeah 403 00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:24,819 now normally this wouldn't matter you 404 00:17:28,590 --> 00:17:26,559 can call yourself Billy Bob Thornton if 405 00:17:30,539 --> 00:17:28,600 you want to but if you want to be 406 00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:30,549 registered with the Department of Fair 407 00:17:35,549 --> 00:17:32,710 Trading as an incorporated Association 408 00:17:37,860 --> 00:17:35,559 they have rules you have to abide by so 409 00:17:40,169 --> 00:17:37,870 we're an incorporated Association 410 00:17:42,899 --> 00:17:40,179 Austrian skeptics we have rules the 411 00:17:44,460 --> 00:17:42,909 local like scout group has to follow 412 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:44,470 those same rules the other one else yeah 413 00:17:48,330 --> 00:17:45,970 we have our regular meetings and it 414 00:17:50,070 --> 00:17:48,340 there Julie notarized or whatever the 415 00:17:53,430 --> 00:17:50,080 term is and hang on Richard can you that 416 00:17:57,210 --> 00:17:53,440 yeah that's an a380 you know just by 417 00:18:00,120 --> 00:17:57,220 hearing not even you're kidding no come 418 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:00,130 on what's right say it is to the window 419 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:04,890 now holy mackerel how do I open this 420 00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:20,560 it's gorgeous 421 00:18:26,830 --> 00:18:23,840 oh sorry spunked into dr. hu it wasn't 422 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:26,840 clamoring to look out the window wow the 423 00:18:30,490 --> 00:18:28,730 just the size of that damn thing flying 424 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:30,500 right over your house luckiest engined 425 00:18:37,330 --> 00:18:34,570 in color and I mean right over your yeah 426 00:18:39,879 --> 00:18:37,340 thnkx ago sorry about that distraction 427 00:18:41,289 --> 00:18:39,889 isn't it um I mean I just was showing 428 00:18:44,620 --> 00:18:41,299 off because I could tell by the sound 429 00:18:46,180 --> 00:18:44,630 that it was 93 Eddie the world um yeah 430 00:18:47,590 --> 00:18:46,190 so they have to follow certain rules and 431 00:18:49,509 --> 00:18:47,600 one of those rules is that their name 432 00:18:52,299 --> 00:18:49,519 must reflect the activities of their 433 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:52,309 organizations so the Department of Fair 434 00:18:55,029 --> 00:18:53,570 Trading acted on this based on 435 00:18:57,310 --> 00:18:55,039 complaints from the general public and 436 00:18:59,889 --> 00:18:57,320 from medical professionals and said you 437 00:19:01,480 --> 00:18:59,899 guys are anti wax you're not kidding 438 00:19:03,940 --> 00:19:01,490 anyone you're not kidding anyone yeah 439 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:03,950 this you know vague name of Australian 440 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:05,690 vaccination network it's not good enough 441 00:19:10,810 --> 00:19:08,090 let's repeat that you are not kidding 442 00:19:14,350 --> 00:19:10,820 anyway well basically that's what the 443 00:19:16,690 --> 00:19:14,360 minister said he said you're not hiding 444 00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:16,700 anything anymore and I mean this this 445 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:18,559 was first raised in the court case where 446 00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:21,490 they sued the H Triple C back in 2010 447 00:19:28,299 --> 00:19:24,559 where even the judge presiding over that 448 00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:28,309 case said to Meryl Dory in court I think 449 00:19:33,690 --> 00:19:31,120 you're being coy about your 450 00:19:36,490 --> 00:19:33,700 organization's intentions and agenda 451 00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:36,500 because they keep banging on about how 452 00:19:39,999 --> 00:19:38,720 they're not anti backs but every piece 453 00:19:43,509 --> 00:19:40,009 of evidence points to the fact that they 454 00:19:44,590 --> 00:19:43,519 are now the thing is so the Department 455 00:19:46,509 --> 00:19:44,600 of Fair Trading has ordered them to 456 00:19:48,730 --> 00:19:46,519 change their name now that the critical 457 00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:48,740 word in this phrase is ordered not 458 00:19:53,710 --> 00:19:52,190 requested not asked nicely not said if 459 00:19:58,149 --> 00:19:53,720 you don't mind and if you don't wanna 460 00:20:00,930 --> 00:19:58,159 it's okay I ordered ok now they had to 461 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:00,940 do this by 462 00:20:05,790 --> 00:20:03,610 that's not an a380 no it's not a little 463 00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:05,800 bit plane they had to do this by the 464 00:20:11,670 --> 00:20:09,520 21st of February's they applied for an 465 00:20:15,780 --> 00:20:11,680 extension of time which they were 466 00:20:19,050 --> 00:20:15,790 granted until March the 23rd which 467 00:20:21,570 --> 00:20:19,060 happened last week they challenged the 468 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:21,580 order in the Australian administered 469 00:20:28,860 --> 00:20:25,450 Ministry of decisions tribunal which 470 00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:28,870 happened last week what Tuesday yeah it 471 00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:31,600 was on Tuesday was on Tuesday last week 472 00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:34,510 anyway whatever so in that when they 473 00:20:40,110 --> 00:20:37,840 challenged that order the Department of 474 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:40,120 Fair Trading said okay that's fine we'll 475 00:20:45,150 --> 00:20:41,890 give you a bit more time but in the 476 00:20:47,850 --> 00:20:45,160 meantime you have to put disclaimers on 477 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:47,860 your websites yes yours logs on your 478 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:50,410 Twitter's any social media Facebook sort 479 00:20:57,630 --> 00:20:54,730 of stuff that says prominently that you 480 00:20:59,790 --> 00:20:57,640 have been ordered by the ADT to change 481 00:21:01,880 --> 00:20:59,800 it DFT to change your name and this 482 00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:01,890 process is currently being negotiated 483 00:21:06,780 --> 00:21:04,960 with the department and that we are 484 00:21:09,660 --> 00:21:06,790 challenging so we are challenging it is 485 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:09,670 that effect yeah now what is really 486 00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:11,890 interesting about this is that this has 487 00:21:18,870 --> 00:21:15,790 come full circle now because back in 488 00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:18,880 2010 the reason Meryl sued the H Triple 489 00:21:22,890 --> 00:21:20,710 C and took them to court was because 490 00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:22,900 they had asked her to put a disclaimer 491 00:21:28,410 --> 00:21:25,600 on her website yes Lee then her blogs 492 00:21:30,090 --> 00:21:28,420 and her Twitter's saying you didn't 493 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:30,100 people shouldn't take this as medical 494 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:32,530 advice and this information is purely 495 00:21:39,630 --> 00:21:35,490 anti-vaccination that was two years ago 496 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:39,640 here we are in 2013 and we're back to 497 00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:42,490 square one where because she's refused 498 00:21:47,850 --> 00:21:45,310 to comply with his legislation all this 499 00:21:50,130 --> 00:21:47,860 time now she's been forced to do this 500 00:21:52,980 --> 00:21:50,140 now the reason this time she has 501 00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:52,990 complied whereas she hasn't with most of 502 00:21:56,820 --> 00:21:54,310 the other things that she's been told to 503 00:21:59,640 --> 00:21:56,830 do is because the Department of Fair 504 00:22:03,360 --> 00:21:59,650 Trading have the ability to deregister 505 00:22:06,450 --> 00:22:03,370 the avn shut them down essentially and 506 00:22:08,820 --> 00:22:06,460 then go in and audit all their finances 507 00:22:11,460 --> 00:22:08,830 seize their assets and distribute them 508 00:22:14,150 --> 00:22:11,470 where they see fit so this is a very 509 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:14,160 serious matter so she 510 00:22:20,540 --> 00:22:16,650 had to do it by 5pm on the twenty-sixth 511 00:22:23,660 --> 00:22:20,550 of march which was tuesday yep and they 512 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:23,670 said that it's called a stay which which 513 00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:25,650 is the legal term for we're not going to 514 00:22:29,990 --> 00:22:27,510 make you do it yet but you have to say 515 00:22:32,090 --> 00:22:30,000 that we're doing it this day was 516 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:32,100 dependent on then putting up those 517 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:38,850 disclaimers by 5pm now the thing is is 518 00:22:43,550 --> 00:22:41,210 that hard to understand that direction 519 00:22:45,410 --> 00:22:43,560 Richard did you find that difficult to 520 00:22:48,740 --> 00:22:45,420 do not follow what happened I thought it 521 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:48,750 was quite a package because somehow they 522 00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:52,170 didn't understand so they put the 523 00:22:57,170 --> 00:22:54,000 disclaimer on their Facebook page they 524 00:22:59,930 --> 00:22:57,180 put it on one of their blogs they put it 525 00:23:03,470 --> 00:22:59,940 on their website on their website in 526 00:23:07,340 --> 00:23:03,480 their blog it's designed for ants it's 527 00:23:10,370 --> 00:23:07,350 so tiny that it just looks like a line 528 00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:10,380 on a phone yeah it's there but yeah yeah 529 00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:12,630 but they specified prominent the DFT 530 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:15,030 specified prominent but their Facebook 531 00:23:20,150 --> 00:23:17,850 page was interesting why what do you 532 00:23:22,850 --> 00:23:20,160 mean well it was it was the banner was 533 00:23:25,130 --> 00:23:22,860 the big yeah yeah suet which also causes 534 00:23:27,140 --> 00:23:25,140 issues apparently because according to 535 00:23:28,730 --> 00:23:27,150 the rules and Facebook banners aren't 536 00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:28,740 meant to have two more than twenty 537 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:31,200 percent text and it was partly obscured 538 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:34,650 by oh yes I mean I don't know how fussy 539 00:23:38,090 --> 00:23:36,090 the day of taste gonna be about this but 540 00:23:40,370 --> 00:23:38,100 one of the things that they didn't do is 541 00:23:43,310 --> 00:23:40,380 the avian has more than one blog they do 542 00:23:46,130 --> 00:23:43,320 indeed they have a blog called astray 543 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:46,140 and skeptics calm yeah the URL is 544 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:48,690 Australian skeptics calm it's called 545 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:51,210 screen real estate digs yes now some 546 00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:54,930 time ago they back in 2009 they've 547 00:23:59,420 --> 00:23:56,310 bought a bunch of Australian skeptics 548 00:23:59,910 --> 00:23:59,430 URLs and it was only last year that they 549 00:24:01,350 --> 00:23:59,920 actually 550 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:01,360 started to populate them and this is the 551 00:24:05,550 --> 00:24:03,490 one they've populated there we 552 00:24:07,710 --> 00:24:05,560 challenged that those them owning those 553 00:24:09,210 --> 00:24:07,720 domain names actually but we didn't win 554 00:24:11,070 --> 00:24:09,220 that challenge because we were told that 555 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:11,080 we didn't have the trademark on that yes 556 00:24:18,930 --> 00:24:16,810 I'm saying so but even before that it 557 00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:18,940 was it was clear that that was their 558 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:23,200 blog and the law says that if you're an 559 00:24:28,050 --> 00:24:25,290 incorporated association like they are 560 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:28,060 everything that you publish every piece 561 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:29,530 of literature that you publish whether 562 00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:32,530 that's a web-sight a brochure a 563 00:24:37,530 --> 00:24:35,710 newsletter has to have the name of your 564 00:24:40,140 --> 00:24:37,540 organization as is registered with the 565 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:40,150 Department of Fair Trading and the 566 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:43,570 incorporated so they were forced so 567 00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:44,890 basically what they were trying to do 568 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:46,390 with this blog was to make it look like 569 00:24:50,820 --> 00:24:49,450 it was us right yeah how about that but 570 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:50,830 then it was filled with information that 571 00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:52,930 was if you didn't accurate and aunty 572 00:24:57,090 --> 00:24:54,310 backs right so they thought whoo-hoo 573 00:24:58,290 --> 00:24:57,100 let's do something really clever once 574 00:25:01,140 --> 00:24:58,300 again they tripped over themselves 575 00:25:03,270 --> 00:25:01,150 because the DFT said to them arm this is 576 00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:03,280 yours you have to clearly identify it's 577 00:25:07,860 --> 00:25:05,740 yours so they now have had to put on it 578 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:07,870 that as the ad ends and they've got a 579 00:25:12,570 --> 00:25:10,690 link to their Facebook page they didn't 580 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:12,580 put the disclaimer on that do not put 581 00:25:16,890 --> 00:25:13,930 the disclaimer on that block they 582 00:25:19,230 --> 00:25:16,900 certainly did not know they failed so 583 00:25:22,050 --> 00:25:19,240 I'm wondering what's going to happen in 584 00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:22,060 that regard and wondering if the DFT is 585 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:23,500 going to act on that because the whole 586 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:25,330 basis for them not being shut down on 587 00:25:29,370 --> 00:25:27,730 Tuesday was that they had to comply with 588 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:29,380 this directive which has put these on 589 00:25:34,650 --> 00:25:33,130 all of your feet now i also found it 590 00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:34,660 funny and i think you you possibly 591 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:36,580 blogged it over facebook that or tweeted 592 00:25:40,140 --> 00:25:37,810 it and all these things get a bit 593 00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:40,150 jumbled after a little while what they 594 00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:43,980 proposed as alternative names oh my gosh 595 00:25:48,930 --> 00:25:46,510 if you can remember me they just pull 596 00:25:51,570 --> 00:25:48,940 them up because it was so Lowell worthy 597 00:25:53,940 --> 00:25:51,580 Lowell worthy I like there was was Luzzi 598 00:25:58,910 --> 00:25:53,950 as they say it was lovely as you stay on 599 00:26:01,260 --> 00:25:58,920 the internet on the internet yeah so 600 00:26:03,030 --> 00:26:01,270 this was blogged about by the avian 601 00:26:05,010 --> 00:26:03,040 actually so they released the letters 602 00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:05,020 that they sent to the Department of Fair 603 00:26:10,590 --> 00:26:07,600 Trading which included suggestions of a 604 00:26:12,180 --> 00:26:10,600 new name right now the Department of 605 00:26:13,260 --> 00:26:12,190 Fair Trading made it very clear that 606 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:13,270 they had to stop being 607 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:15,490 coy about their agenda in other words 608 00:26:21,210 --> 00:26:17,890 you have to put the word anti-vaccine 609 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:21,220 your name right so here's here are some 610 00:26:23,790 --> 00:26:22,690 of the suggestions that they sent to the 611 00:26:26,010 --> 00:26:23,800 Department of Fair Trading which they 612 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:26,020 blogged about so we haven't got these in 613 00:26:29,940 --> 00:26:28,450 any when a clandestine way and we're not 614 00:26:31,530 --> 00:26:29,950 making much we're not making them up 615 00:26:33,570 --> 00:26:31,540 however this is a scenario that I 616 00:26:37,380 --> 00:26:33,580 imagined in my head but the names are 617 00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:37,390 real the scenario is not okay department 618 00:26:43,230 --> 00:26:39,790 of Fair Trading get a new name avian 619 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:43,240 avian okay how's Australian vaccination 620 00:26:50,130 --> 00:26:46,210 Information Network Department of Fair 621 00:26:55,940 --> 00:26:50,140 Trading know avian Australian 622 00:27:01,610 --> 00:26:55,950 vaccination Information Network DFT no 623 00:27:04,020 --> 00:27:01,620 Australian vaccination information no 624 00:27:08,970 --> 00:27:04,030 Australian vaccination network for 625 00:27:12,420 --> 00:27:08,980 choice face palm is fine Australian 626 00:27:15,420 --> 00:27:12,430 vaccination choice Australian 627 00:27:19,290 --> 00:27:15,430 immunization network what no I'm serious 628 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:19,300 that is that is what they propose right 629 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:21,850 and then when they went to the court to 630 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:24,010 the hearing to challenge the order to 631 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:27,010 change their name the UM the new 632 00:27:31,410 --> 00:27:29,770 president greg BTW said that that that 633 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:31,420 the department fair trading were being 634 00:27:36,270 --> 00:27:34,690 coy he said that they were being coy 635 00:27:39,090 --> 00:27:36,280 about what they should change their name 636 00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:39,100 to and he didn't know and he was asking 637 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:40,510 them for advice and they wouldn't help 638 00:27:45,300 --> 00:27:43,330 him and then the newspaper article said 639 00:27:48,060 --> 00:27:45,310 well do you think it's going to affect 640 00:27:51,060 --> 00:27:48,070 you your organization and your members 641 00:27:53,490 --> 00:27:51,070 and your fan base if you have to change 642 00:27:55,890 --> 00:27:53,500 it very drastically and he said well I 643 00:28:00,320 --> 00:27:55,900 don't know if we had to change it to 644 00:28:04,110 --> 00:28:00,330 wendys ice cream then maybe he's what 645 00:28:05,970 --> 00:28:04,120 well either they're completely off with 646 00:28:08,970 --> 00:28:05,980 the fairies or they're taking the piss 647 00:28:11,030 --> 00:28:08,980 now I'm not sure which one it is to 648 00:28:14,460 --> 00:28:11,040 touch the trade you straight but they 649 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:14,470 have also requested that the DFT helped 650 00:28:20,670 --> 00:28:16,930 them to come up with a name to which the 651 00:28:22,500 --> 00:28:20,680 DFT has said loves do it yourselves you 652 00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:22,510 run the company you come up with the 653 00:28:26,290 --> 00:28:25,510 name but the problem now is that once 654 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:26,300 they come up with 655 00:28:29,890 --> 00:28:28,010 the name they have to get it approved by 656 00:28:32,830 --> 00:28:29,900 their members so they have to call an 657 00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:32,840 emergency annual general meeting or 658 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:34,940 something where they have to get it 659 00:28:38,050 --> 00:28:36,410 approved by something like seventy five 660 00:28:41,950 --> 00:28:38,060 percent of the members before they can 661 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:41,960 submit it to the DFT so put them in a 662 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:43,730 bit of advice because they can't keep 663 00:28:47,410 --> 00:28:45,530 doing stuff like sending them the 664 00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:47,420 Australian vaccination choice network 665 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:49,910 because I know that'll get rejected yeah 666 00:28:53,740 --> 00:28:51,650 they're going to have to come clean 667 00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:53,750 they're gonna have to look that I'm 668 00:28:57,370 --> 00:28:55,310 gonna if they don't call themselves the 669 00:28:58,600 --> 00:28:57,380 Australian anti-vaccination network I 670 00:29:01,390 --> 00:28:58,610 don't think they're going to get away 671 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:01,400 with much else yeah and they're by all 672 00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:03,650 means let them call themselves that well 673 00:29:07,930 --> 00:29:06,110 the I mean I think I said before that 674 00:29:10,420 --> 00:29:07,940 the option is if they don't agree to 675 00:29:13,030 --> 00:29:10,430 that the the DFT will deregister them 676 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:13,040 and seize their assets now there might 677 00:29:16,690 --> 00:29:14,930 not be such a big problem at the moment 678 00:29:18,130 --> 00:29:16,700 because merrill says they only have 679 00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:18,140 three thousand dollars in the bank right 680 00:29:23,730 --> 00:29:21,110 now which also suggests that they could 681 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:23,740 possibly be maybe trading insolvent Lee 682 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:26,810 because they still owe a lot of people 683 00:29:30,580 --> 00:29:28,730 subscriptions for the magazine they shut 684 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:30,590 down in the beginning of the year well 685 00:29:34,990 --> 00:29:32,330 that's up for the authorities to work 686 00:29:36,730 --> 00:29:35,000 Wiegel Ali well exactly but the other 687 00:29:39,070 --> 00:29:36,740 thing that's happened recently that is 688 00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:39,080 also of merrells doing which has not 689 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:41,600 only put her in the poo it's also put a 690 00:29:45,550 --> 00:29:44,090 lot of other alternative medicine 691 00:29:49,270 --> 00:29:45,560 practitioners in New South Wales in the 692 00:29:51,550 --> 00:29:49,280 poo is that the regulatory body that 693 00:29:53,740 --> 00:29:51,560 looks after olt Medes in unregistered 694 00:29:55,660 --> 00:29:53,750 alt meadows in New South Wales so that's 695 00:29:58,510 --> 00:29:55,670 people that don't have to be registered 696 00:30:00,130 --> 00:29:58,520 with a pro like okay so osteopath sand 697 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:00,140 chiropractors have to be registered with 698 00:30:04,630 --> 00:30:01,850 the Australian health practitioners 699 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:04,640 registration authority right same as 700 00:30:10,270 --> 00:30:06,290 doctors but if you're saying 701 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:10,280 nutritionist or a masseuse or a I don't 702 00:30:13,870 --> 00:30:12,290 know any religious okay you don't have 703 00:30:16,030 --> 00:30:13,880 to be registered so no one's really 704 00:30:18,610 --> 00:30:16,040 controlling you write your unregulated 705 00:30:20,050 --> 00:30:18,620 right so the body that looks after these 706 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:20,060 unregulated people is called the 707 00:30:23,620 --> 00:30:21,650 Healthcare Compliance commission right 708 00:30:24,910 --> 00:30:23,630 of course now previously if you want to 709 00:30:27,100 --> 00:30:24,920 complain about a health care 710 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:27,110 practitioner who was unregistered the 711 00:30:31,420 --> 00:30:29,330 only way you could do that is really if 712 00:30:34,150 --> 00:30:31,430 you had been injured yourself so if you 713 00:30:35,740 --> 00:30:34,160 went to a neurologist and they twisted 714 00:30:38,490 --> 00:30:35,750 your back or something and you've got an 715 00:30:42,390 --> 00:30:38,500 injury you could complain about them 716 00:30:44,130 --> 00:30:42,400 as an as an observer who sees that the 717 00:30:46,890 --> 00:30:44,140 autologous tis saying I can cure your 718 00:30:48,210 --> 00:30:46,900 cancer you have no right to complain in 719 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:48,220 a hypothetical situation yeah 720 00:30:53,010 --> 00:30:49,810 interrupted because you have not 721 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:53,020 personally been harmed okay this was the 722 00:31:00,060 --> 00:30:56,050 clause that the avian won their case 723 00:31:02,970 --> 00:31:00,070 with in a 2010 because the complaint was 724 00:31:06,510 --> 00:31:02,980 written by Ken MacLeod about the avians 725 00:31:09,030 --> 00:31:06,520 misinformation but he personally had not 726 00:31:10,620 --> 00:31:09,040 been injured by them and the barristers 727 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:10,630 for the H Triple C could not present 728 00:31:15,330 --> 00:31:12,370 evidence of anyone being personally 729 00:31:17,670 --> 00:31:15,340 injured by this information right so 730 00:31:19,980 --> 00:31:17,680 Merrill sued the H Triple C for that she 731 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:19,990 won guess what that did it exposed a 732 00:31:26,340 --> 00:31:21,970 loophole in the legislation guess what's 733 00:31:29,370 --> 00:31:26,350 happened now I'm on the edge of my chair 734 00:31:31,980 --> 00:31:29,380 tell me what happened now in Parliament 735 00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:31,990 in the last week and a half a bill was 736 00:31:36,660 --> 00:31:34,240 introduced by the Health Minister to 737 00:31:38,910 --> 00:31:36,670 close that legislation because it was 738 00:31:40,980 --> 00:31:38,920 brought to their attention by the 739 00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:40,990 Australian vaccination network and if 740 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:42,910 you look at the transcripts from the 741 00:31:46,530 --> 00:31:44,410 court hearing which in Australia is 742 00:31:48,690 --> 00:31:46,540 called hansard they mentioned 743 00:31:50,940 --> 00:31:48,700 specifically the Honorable Julian's 744 00:31:53,430 --> 00:31:50,950 Jillian Skinner specifically says be 745 00:31:55,110 --> 00:31:53,440 closed the Parliament hurts obvious by 746 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:55,120 hand side yet yes Father she 747 00:32:00,210 --> 00:31:56,890 specifically says because of what the 748 00:32:03,900 --> 00:32:00,220 avian did suing the H Triple C we will 749 00:32:06,210 --> 00:32:03,910 now close this loophole so here's what's 750 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:06,220 going to happen right now this also has 751 00:32:11,670 --> 00:32:08,170 bipartisan support which means that it's 752 00:32:13,410 --> 00:32:11,680 supported by the opposition as well yes 753 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:13,420 very good now at this point it's only a 754 00:32:16,890 --> 00:32:15,850 bill it won't be a law it's got to go 755 00:32:18,450 --> 00:32:16,900 it's got to go through several stages 756 00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:18,460 through it becomes a law but it's 757 00:32:21,180 --> 00:32:19,510 already gone through one stage and 758 00:32:22,500 --> 00:32:21,190 nobody's questioned it because they both 759 00:32:24,750 --> 00:32:22,510 agree with it sounds like a reasonable 760 00:32:27,180 --> 00:32:24,760 thing yeah and so what it means now is 761 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:27,190 not only does it mean that an innocent 762 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:28,930 bystander like you or me can see an ad 763 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:31,210 for an iridology in the paper and go 764 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:33,730 that's dodgy and complain it also means 765 00:32:37,650 --> 00:32:35,890 that the health minister and the H 766 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:37,660 Triple C themselves can take action 767 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:39,610 independently this is just brilliant 768 00:32:44,610 --> 00:32:41,770 it's all thanks to the egg it's all 769 00:32:47,910 --> 00:32:44,620 thanks to the avian putting everyone up 770 00:32:50,430 --> 00:32:47,920 poo creek without a paddle so the thing 771 00:32:51,410 --> 00:32:50,440 is now not only she put herself in the 772 00:32:53,210 --> 00:32:51,420 poo she's 773 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:53,220 all I mates in the poo it seems so 774 00:32:57,350 --> 00:32:55,770 doesn't it all because two years ago she 775 00:32:59,720 --> 00:32:57,360 wouldn't put a disclaimer on her website 776 00:33:01,550 --> 00:32:59,730 and the other thing that is so 777 00:33:02,990 --> 00:33:01,560 interesting about this is that she is 778 00:33:06,110 --> 00:33:03,000 now personally putting a disclaimer on 779 00:33:08,170 --> 00:33:06,120 everything she writes yes so she'll 780 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:08,180 write a Facebook post and it will say I 781 00:33:12,740 --> 00:33:10,770 reckon this about joe bloggs and Eric in 782 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:12,750 that and underneath that says this is 783 00:33:15,950 --> 00:33:14,250 not necessarily the opinion of merrill 784 00:33:17,870 --> 00:33:15,960 dory or the avian this should not be 785 00:33:19,550 --> 00:33:17,880 construed as medical advice on 786 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:19,560 everything she rides see I haven't 787 00:33:23,420 --> 00:33:21,570 noticed it everything she writes and so 788 00:33:26,570 --> 00:33:23,430 that was what she was meant to do all 789 00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:26,580 those years ago so three to three years 790 00:33:31,370 --> 00:33:29,460 ago here we are now three years later 791 00:33:35,450 --> 00:33:31,380 fast forward and she's got to do it 792 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:35,460 anyway she's lost a lot of income she's 793 00:33:41,330 --> 00:33:38,130 lost her reputation because she's not 794 00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:41,340 being honest about what she's doing all 795 00:33:44,830 --> 00:33:42,960 because she was too belligerent to 796 00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:44,840 comply with this one little thing as I 797 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:48,480 said before and then phrase came to my 798 00:33:53,510 --> 00:33:50,130 mind the chickens are coming home to 799 00:33:55,940 --> 00:33:53,520 roost hmm it might it took a while yeah 800 00:33:57,470 --> 00:33:55,950 but the the wheels of government grind 801 00:34:00,170 --> 00:33:57,480 very slowly you know you don't change 802 00:34:01,610 --> 00:34:00,180 legislation overnight but this is 803 00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:01,620 basically an example of grassroots 804 00:34:06,140 --> 00:34:03,510 skepticism that will potentially change 805 00:34:08,690 --> 00:34:06,150 legislation folks sometimes it's a long 806 00:34:11,450 --> 00:34:08,700 road you have lots of setbacks it's hard 807 00:34:14,540 --> 00:34:11,460 and it's very stressful at times mm-hmm 808 00:34:17,060 --> 00:34:14,550 but oh he goes another one but sometimes 809 00:34:20,090 --> 00:34:17,070 it pays off yeah to be frank yeah i mean 810 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:20,100 this bill hasn't come in yet but when it 811 00:34:23,690 --> 00:34:22,169 does i think people there's going to be 812 00:34:25,370 --> 00:34:23,700 a bunch of people that are going to have 813 00:34:26,240 --> 00:34:25,380 to clean up there well you know what i 814 00:34:27,830 --> 00:34:26,250 think it's going to be a very 815 00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:27,840 interesting couple of years coming up 816 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:29,520 for the australian skeptics nail friends 817 00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:32,850 yeah yeah you lose so I think if it is 818 00:34:35,780 --> 00:34:34,320 introduced into Parliament and what when 819 00:34:37,790 --> 00:34:35,790 it's introduced into Parliament is more 820 00:34:41,510 --> 00:34:37,800 likely we probably need to set up 821 00:34:43,250 --> 00:34:41,520 something like the come the what's a 822 00:34:45,470 --> 00:34:43,260 cold Nightingale collaboration into 823 00:34:47,540 --> 00:34:45,480 keene Australia so we can make it easy 824 00:34:50,419 --> 00:34:47,550 for people if they spot things like that 825 00:34:53,870 --> 00:34:50,429 they can easily complain to the H Triple 826 00:34:56,210 --> 00:34:53,880 C and um what was that it's a believe is 827 00:35:00,020 --> 00:34:56,220 it mind-body wallet oh my gosh exactly 828 00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:00,030 so you note that plugin for chrome it's 829 00:35:04,850 --> 00:35:02,510 a it's a quack a little quickie duck and 830 00:35:06,770 --> 00:35:04,860 it's called barrel 831 00:35:09,620 --> 00:35:06,780 I can't think of it I got it you know 832 00:35:11,060 --> 00:35:09,630 you know the one it was anyway if we had 833 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:11,070 something like that we can use it in 834 00:35:15,350 --> 00:35:14,130 Australia wow just like shooting fish in 835 00:35:17,870 --> 00:35:15,360 a barrel I mean that's what it was named 836 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:17,880 after what what an interesting time it's 837 00:35:22,190 --> 00:35:20,370 been done yeah what into folks it's 838 00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:22,200 going to be here in dr. a gspot room but 839 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:26,160 my goodness make it is muggy it is much 840 00:35:31,310 --> 00:35:28,890 Sydney at the moment is really humid and 841 00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:31,320 I'm pleased I am pleased I am stepping 842 00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:36,000 on a plane in a few days 22 snowy Europe 843 00:35:40,910 --> 00:35:38,160 I know it's going to be very easy and 844 00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:40,920 only UK I'm looking forward to it I was 845 00:35:45,020 --> 00:35:43,110 this muggy hot weather yeah thank you 846 00:35:48,020 --> 00:35:45,030 dr. AG for that wonderful update wow the 847 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:48,030 story goes on and stalking good yes 848 00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:50,970 Brooks we please if you were in 849 00:35:55,370 --> 00:35:53,250 Manchester if you come into QED please 850 00:35:59,200 --> 00:35:55,380 come and say hello to dr. 80 and myself 851 00:36:03,080 --> 00:35:59,210 where to meet you and have a chat and I 852 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:03,090 do a lot of fan letters and encouraging 853 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:04,650 letters from people in the UK and it's 854 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:06,090 very nice we would have you huge 855 00:36:10,130 --> 00:36:08,490 listenership in the UK yeah we asked 856 00:36:13,610 --> 00:36:10,140 really nice to know that I'm hoping to 857 00:36:16,940 --> 00:36:13,620 go to snowdonia in Wales going to Wales 858 00:36:19,010 --> 00:36:16,950 if I probably cool is that but it's 859 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:19,020 supposed to be very cold there and not 860 00:36:23,180 --> 00:36:20,730 not just cold and snowing which is 861 00:36:25,430 --> 00:36:23,190 pretty but freezing cold and vertical 862 00:36:28,730 --> 00:36:25,440 rain so I'm not sure I want to go there 863 00:36:29,990 --> 00:36:28,740 if it's like that ah don't know and I 864 00:36:34,580 --> 00:36:30,000 was certainly looking forward to meeting 865 00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:34,590 friends and people in Oslo and Dublin of 866 00:36:40,220 --> 00:36:36,510 course and of course the big convention 867 00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:40,230 in the Czech Republic and they sent me a 868 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:41,730 list of some of the movies I'm going to 869 00:36:46,910 --> 00:36:45,090 be looking at very one of them is the 870 00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:46,920 time traveler's guide to Australia which 871 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:48,720 was on the ABC what did you watch that's 872 00:36:53,529 --> 00:36:51,410 really really really good yeah that was 873 00:36:55,539 --> 00:36:53,539 yeah wonderful show really really 874 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:55,549 interesting so yeah all good things 875 00:37:00,160 --> 00:36:56,930 don't write you all good things coming 876 00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:00,170 up I shall see you in Manchester uh yeah 877 00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:20,490 hey fellow skeptics I'm trench the 878 00:37:24,839 --> 00:37:22,510 co-host of a podcast called seeds of 879 00:37:33,810 --> 00:37:24,849 doubt and creative a new project called 880 00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:36,460 Dropbox is dedicated to providing new 881 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:39,200 music for your radio show or podcast and 882 00:37:43,510 --> 00:37:41,090 to help support your cause through the 883 00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:43,520 sound waves the song you're listening to 884 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:45,920 is called keep looking up and can be 885 00:37:57,250 --> 00:37:48,890 heard on the podcast oddments by college 886 00:38:04,540 --> 00:38:00,020 they need some new music check me out 887 00:38:23,319 --> 00:38:04,550 facebook.com slash dropbox that's dr o P 888 00:38:26,569 --> 00:38:25,430 thank you for listening to the skeptic 889 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:26,579 zone I'm still here in beautiful 890 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:29,490 circular key in Sydney Australia google 891 00:38:33,020 --> 00:38:32,130 it folks google it that's right near the 892 00:38:35,660 --> 00:38:33,030 Opera House in the harbour bridge 893 00:38:37,730 --> 00:38:35,670 there's a busker just over to my right 894 00:38:39,349 --> 00:38:37,740 and dressed up like Charlie Chaplin one 895 00:38:42,049 --> 00:38:39,359 of those buskers who stays absolutely 896 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:42,059 motionless he's been like that for about 897 00:38:50,180 --> 00:38:45,690 30 minutes now oh that's one way to make 898 00:38:51,770 --> 00:38:50,190 a living I suppose well coming up on the 899 00:38:53,630 --> 00:38:51,780 next couple of shows that's going to be 900 00:38:56,599 --> 00:38:53,640 quite interesting I hope I'll be 901 00:38:59,000 --> 00:38:56,609 recording my adventures along the trip 902 00:39:00,400 --> 00:38:59,010 I'm doing talking to local skeptics in 903 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:00,410 various countries around the world 904 00:39:05,329 --> 00:39:02,970 bringing to you as many interviews and 905 00:39:06,799 --> 00:39:05,339 insights as I can and I'm sure my team 906 00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:06,809 back here in Australia will also be 907 00:39:10,250 --> 00:39:08,730 pitching in with reports and interviews 908 00:39:12,470 --> 00:39:10,260 right certainly hope so there's a big 909 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:12,480 hint and a big shout out till my dear 910 00:39:16,309 --> 00:39:14,490 friend penny Chan our reporter in Long 911 00:39:17,630 --> 00:39:16,319 Beach in California I saw a very 912 00:39:20,089 --> 00:39:17,640 interesting post that she put on 913 00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:20,099 facebook she said she wished at the 914 00:39:23,839 --> 00:39:21,569 something like she wished that there 915 00:39:25,309 --> 00:39:23,849 were more radio dramas the good 916 00:39:28,579 --> 00:39:25,319 old-fashioned radio adventures and 917 00:39:30,950 --> 00:39:28,589 dramas penny I really agree with that I 918 00:39:33,260 --> 00:39:30,960 think that's a pretty good idea I really 919 00:39:35,059 --> 00:39:33,270 agree with that theater of the mind they 920 00:39:36,829 --> 00:39:35,069 call it I think that's great well I 921 00:39:39,349 --> 00:39:36,839 better go home now and start packing as 922 00:39:41,809 --> 00:39:39,359 a thousands of people are milling around 923 00:39:44,450 --> 00:39:41,819 beside me in the brilliant sunshine here 924 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:44,460 but for now is one of the rivercats the 925 00:39:49,250 --> 00:39:47,490 susie o'neill slowly pulls off from its 926 00:39:51,530 --> 00:39:49,260 dock in front of me this is Richard 927 00:39:57,980 --> 00:39:51,540 Saunders signing off from circular key 928 00:40:00,440 --> 00:39:57,990 in Sydney Australia you've been 929 00:40:04,970 --> 00:40:00,450 listening to the skeptic sir 930 00:40:08,270 --> 00:40:04,980 visit our website at www skeptic zoomtv